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Post by Keten on Jan 23, 2010 23:30:29 GMT 1
I really really really loved both of the programs so much. And I'm really sad when I hear somebody actually didn't like them Of course i'm not only talking about you freefall, I understand you love all the details and the wild, intense, mature etc. programs like Flamenco, Carne Cruda etc. And I respect that because those programs were just awesome. But I found them a bit tiring for him psychologically. He gets into the mood of the music, and I believe lighter music was necessary for the Olympics where he'll already feel very nervous. Now with LA Traviata even if he feels down he can listen to the music and enjoy himself. This might affect his trainings as well, which is really important in my opinion. His skating is such a beauty. And when I thought I was the only one loving it, just because it's signed by Lambiel, the Turkish commentator who may actually be in love with Plushenko more than I am with Stéphane, told it was something special. Also the Turkish skater Kutay mentioned of him as "a ballet, a dancer, a sportsman combined in one". Well this is true but I now know for sure, I'm not imagining this. And you can be calm as well, because the music suits him and the interpretation is just wonderful. And the costume, actually somehow funny off the ice, probably the shoulders cause that, but on the ice with the music, it's just another part of the magic. It's OK if you expect more of him, though But what i'm really upset about is, I saw a real person, who claimed nothing was special about Stéphane and blamed me for loving "just a cute boy who spins fast", who thought Evgeni and Stéphane weren't even in the same class! I just wonder how could she be so blind? Yeah our petit prince does not have the top class jumps anymore (that's the reason of the 18 points gap in general standing) , but his skating is, and these programs are just wonderful.
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Post by Hoosierfan on Jan 24, 2010 4:36:57 GMT 1
Interesting to read the comments. I agree with Sigrid that the costume fits the program. It is elegant and simple. I wouldn't mind if he got rid of the tassels on his shoulders, but the costume fits him well and accentuates his neck and his expressive arms.
I somewhat agree with freefall. I was not impressed with the practices of the program, as I thought that La Traviata was music that any skater would have picked. The program seemed sorto slow and boring compared to Poeta, Otono Porteno, and The Four Seasons. Those programs have so many interesting moments and movements between the jumps and footwork sequences. La Traviata is rather stripped down by comparison. Still, as I've watched it more, I've come to appreciate that Stéphane is going for a simple (not necessarily easy) and elegant program. It is reminiscent of John Curry, as others have said. Yes, I'd like to see some more interesting choreography and transitions, but the program must be kept uncluttered also. Stéphane seemed reserved and nervous in the LP, despite the great scores he received for Program Components. So maybe with a few tweaks and a full on performance, I could come to love this program. It is beautiful and elegant, but it could be that and so much more.
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Post by freefall on Jan 24, 2010 8:34:56 GMT 1
You are reading my thoughts, Hoosierfan I was thinking how to put it into words for a good while. So I'll try it now. But it's going to be difficult. When I watched La Traviata for the first time I actually didn't feel the spell I usually feel watching Stephane's programs. This performance didn't capture, didn't move me the way it usually happens when Stephane is on the ice. I surprisingly found myself noticing the lack of choreography and the fact that Stephane wasn't into this performance as he uses to be. I wasn't under a spell, I couldn't enjoy it and after the performance I didn't feel the usual wish to give Stephane a loud applause. And I was kind of shocked by everyone's big reaction to this performance, by that HIGH PCS, by the way everyone seemed to like it at the very first sight and by Stephane's satisfaction with it. Because though it clearly was the most artistic program of the night, Stephane wasn't out there even a half the Stephane he can be - the one who leaves you breathless after his performance without any words to say, with the tears in your eyes. I must admit that if I had seen this performance of his as my first I wouldn't have become his fan just at once as I did after watching his 2008 Euros performances. I want to think that it's only because he was nervous and the program wasn't "old" enough yet to look perfect but I can't help remembering Dralion in Torino, King Arthur in Moscow, Wilhelm Tell in Oberstdorf, Otono Porteno at Torino Gala 2008 - these programs were then too only weeks "old" but what performances those were! Breathtaking! And La Traviata left me almost cold with its incompleteness. First I thought that it was because I was so worried for the jumps that I didn't see anything between them. But watching it over and over again didn't change my attitute too much. Of course the program is pleasant to watch, it's light and entertaining, but the level of choreography and artistry in it doesn't match other Stephane's great programs. I hope that the time he still has until Vancouver will be enough to accomplish the HELL of work it needs now to earn the right to be compared with Poeta, Otono Porteno, Ne me quitte pas, William Tell and many other of his perfect, dazzling programs. He has to work hard and much on the transitions which are now very weak for HIS usual level, on the steps which look shaky and unsure. I like the mood of the music, I like his mood in the program - I am surprised but I really DO, so I hope very much that Stephane will take his time to bring "his new dream" (as he called the new LP in Sportlounge in December) to perfection which is worthy of being called Lambiel's program.
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Post by yappi on Jan 24, 2010 8:57:16 GMT 1
And I'm really sad when I hear somebody actually didn't like them Yeah our petit prince does not have the top class jumps anymore (that's the reason of the 18 points gap in general standing) I don't agree with the last sentence. Plush is always overrated, but I guess this time judges showed that they Do want a victory of Steph. If he hadn't these mistakes he would have scored first. Nevertheless I'm sooo happy that he is happppyyyy. I missed him so much. I guess I understood this on the first day during K&C. I didn't pay attention on the points of SP. I just smiled him in response ;D When he touched ice in Traviata I pushed all my thoughts away, not to disturb myself with counting, but just simply falling in love with him and his program. I just want everybody wish : ENJOY his ComeBack. We didn't hope, he didn't promise, but he gave us one of the biggest gifts that we were not supposed to have after October conference. Don't think of rivalry, competition, lack of choreograthy (I would really argue with the person who states so). If audience was taken within seconds into unforgattable emotions, if people couldn't help clapping out their hands, If they were so much charmed, what can be the talk about. I do want Steph to wish : Let Your dream come true. I wish Steph to shake Plushenko's hand from the top of pedestal
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Post by freefall on Jan 24, 2010 9:10:00 GMT 1
Plush is always overrated, but I guess this time judges showed that they Do want a victory of Steph. If he hadn't these mistakes he would have scored first. I got that feeling too. If he only had done a combination in the SP he would have won this competition, even without 3A. The judges liked him enormously. This competition made me feel that Stephane is WELCOME back to competition. It looks like the judges are now ready to give him points for the single fact that he's come there to delight us all.
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Post by freefall on Jan 24, 2010 17:17:17 GMT 1
if people couldn't help clapping out their hands, If they were so much charmed, what can be the talk about. Actually this audience stood up for Plushenko too, so I'd doubt their quality . No offense. I am not saying that La Traviata is bad (God, forgive me for even writing these words!), my idea is that what we saw in Tallinn was actually only a sketch of what we are going to see in Vancouver, it's unfinished, that's why it doesn't look dazzling to me in comparison with other Stephane's programs.
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 24, 2010 18:17:20 GMT 1
I am hoping that this costume is a temporary one put together for Euros. (edited to add: It is growing on me, the more I see it.) It doesn't match the description in a Japanese article that namiki came across, and I'm thinking perhaps the Olympic version is still in the process of being created. Yet, from what Salome said in the post-SP Absolute Skating interview, it could be the costume ... perhaps it's one of two costumes for the program? (There were at least 3 costumes for Otono Porteno.) I do love how it fits him. It's quite princely. I don't think there will be another version. He said in the press conference that this was the final versin of the costume, he might make it sparkle a bit more but he wouldn't change the costume. But then again, with Stéphane, you never know... ;D Personally, I love it. I think it suits his program perfectly and suits him, too. Yes, this is THE costume for it. And Stephane LOVES it!!!! (created by the team behind The Zebra, Blood Diamond, and King Arthur) Now that I've watched it literally a hundred times, I can definitively say for the costume. It is very Stephane, very elegant, and right out of some ballet. I've given the tassels a lot of thought, while watching it over and over and over again, and I think it works. He simply rocks everything he wears, what can I say. The look is ==PRINCE== and not a flashy sort but a very very sweeeeeet, fairytale sort -- that young girls all over the world will be dreaming about, that adult women will find alluring, that the sophisticates will approve of. I like its simplicity, and the charming details. The front design is evocative of fairytales, to me. It also resembles some "Lord of the Rings" artwork I've seen. It stirs our imaginations by alluding to fairytale, dreams, epic quests, and imaginative flowerings. Neat trick. It also shows off his beautiful bodyline and gorgeous neckline. And once again, I want to express my love of the flowing sleeves. My perfect Prince! -- S4
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Post by kayin on Jan 24, 2010 19:03:05 GMT 1
Okay so now for my opinion... I loved La Traviata, it's a nice program with nothing too 'out there' for the judges to dislike (don't get me wrong, i love edgy and modern routines but i think most judges like tradition especially in an olympic season). As to the cotume, i really like it apart from the two white tassles on either shoulder, which i think should be cream to match the gorgeous shirt. The use of black is obvious for a costume because it has the maximum contrast against the white ice, but the sleeves were nice and elegant in cream. The costume actually reminded me of one of Alexei Yagudin's (to Tosca i think it was), if it was good enough for Yagudin, it's good enough for Steph So as this is the programs thrad (and i've just rambled on about costume) what did Steph skate in the gala?
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Post by swissmiss on Jan 24, 2010 19:11:25 GMT 1
what did Steph skate in the gala? He did "Ne Me Quitte Pas". Now that costume I hate. It looks too much like pajamas - like he forgot to get dressed before coming to the arena. I agree with you about the tassels - I thought they were distracting. sm
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Post by sha on Jan 24, 2010 20:01:17 GMT 1
I like its simplicity, and the charming details. The front design is evocative of fairytales, to me. It also resembles some "Lord of the Rings" artwork I've seen. -- S4 you know Sally, I have the same feeling - it reminds me style of Legolas tiny, high, elegant and gently... almost unnatural. And honestly, I think that choise was in 10! combination of colores, form, material... everything fits perfect to the atmosphere of whole program which is for me a bit like a fable "Beauty and the Beast" (after metamorphosis ofcourse )
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Post by Hoosierfan on Jan 24, 2010 20:10:36 GMT 1
Okay so now for my opinion... I loved La Traviata, it's a nice program with nothing too 'out there' for the judges to dislike (don't get me wrong, i love edgy and modern routines but i think most judges like tradition especially in an olympic season). As to the cotume, i really like it apart from the two white tassles on either shoulder, which i think should be cream to match the gorgeous shirt. The use of black is obvious for a costume because it has the maximum contrast against the white ice, but the sleeves were nice and elegant in cream. The costume actually reminded me of one of Alexei Yagudin's (to Tosca i think it was), if it was good enough for Yagudin, it's good enough for Steph So as this is the programs thrad (and i've just rambled on about costume) what did Steph skate in the gala? I think you are right about why Stéphane chose La Traviata. Otono Porteno perhaps did not transform well from a gala program to a competitive program. More importantly, the music and program were too sophisticated to be appreciated by judges (and audiences) who like famliar music. Stéphane's OP puts Plushenko's "tango" to shame, however. My objection, if it can even be called that, to the tassels on the La Traviata costume is that they are difficult to see except for in photographs or in slow motion. Maybe they were easier to see in the arena, but when I watched Stéphane's program on ETV the other day, the tassels were almost invisible. I don't understand the point of having something on the costume that moves with you if people can't see it. swissmiss: I'm not really into the NMQP costume either, but it sorto makes sense for the program.
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 24, 2010 20:12:50 GMT 1
The choreography of La Traviata is simply genius. I say it is a monster program, even in this stage -- a winning Olympic program.
Stephane the artist is working with a different instrument right now. I am SOOOOO stoked to see that his injuries seem to be under control, by the way. This is great news for his jumps. And no, his jumps are not worse than before. He simply missed them at the Euros when it counted, because he did them well in practice. Unlike EVERY OTHER SKATER competing there, he did no Grand Prix event. This was his first season outing on this level. With two brand new programs, one only weeks old. That he held it together as he did is amazing. He will be more consistent and stable, at Vancouver. And he did TWO fully rotated quads in the free skate!
But his body is quite finicky at the moment (hope it heals, however slowly), and he has changed the way he moves, in his everyday life as well as on the ice. That wraparound brace around his torso, it is to help his "core" stay aligned properly. There are movements that hurt him more than others, and naturally you want to minimize these. With a new body, and new awareness of centering his torso, his movements have become SO much more smoooooth. Perhaps he will return to choreographies like Poeta, Carne Cruda, and Blood Diamond (yowza, pheromone!) in the future, but right now he NEEDS to minimize distorting his body into unnatural positions, and stay away from quick jerky movements, apart from the sheer point of progressing artistically and stylistically. This is new, more sophisticated, more subtle, more grown up.
So, how do you build a perfect, winning Olympic program that maximizes point-gets while minimizing harm done to an injured skater? Team Lambiel's ingenious solution was to pile on transitions and connections and pile on some more throughout the whole program, so that not only PCS but TES is also jacked up right from the get go. Think of it this way. Imagine the ice as a piece of cloth, and choreography as embroidery. What everyone else is doing is sewing on the embroidery with various details and highlights and flashy bits on a plain piece of cloth. Stephane is not only sewing on his distinct, delicate, lace-like embroideries with a more skilled hand but doing it on a finely quilted piece of cloth. He's got more thread (points) on that piece of cloth to start with! Add to it his two quads (one in combination) and his diamond spins, and this program cannot be beaten, even with slight bobbles.
Had he not fallen on the footwork -- a freak miss -- he would have OUT AND OUT WON the free program. Even with his salchow combo botched into an over-rotated single jump, and his first quad a touch down, and his second quad a 4-2 instead of 4-3. He also got sort of lost in the middle of the routine, shortly before the botched salchow, and improvised into his salchow. So, with an imperfectly executed program, with even the choreography not fully presented, he came away with this monster score.
Now let's look at Evgeni. He was said to be training a 4-4, and quad lutz, and etc. So he will most likely add to his JUMP element difficulty by ... 10-20 or so. If he does the crazy new combo late in the program, and somehow manages to eke out some more points elsewhere, then we can give him extra 25 points or so, being generous. Let's be even more generous and give him a full 30+ on the already grossly inflated score he received in Tallinn, 164.09. Hey, I feel generous right now, so I'll round it off to 165 and add the 30 imaginary points. So we are looking at 195 points. I feel extra generous, so let's say he'll score 200 in the free in Vancouver, staying off his butt and managing absolutely clean landings, in the most optimistic projection.
Now let's look at Stephane's free skate. Unlike with Evgeni, I will be less generous with my darling, out of tough love and SANITY. He won't miss the footwork in that freaky way in Vancouver, I will bet my life on it. I will guarantee you that he will not get lost in the middle of the routine choreographically in Vancouver, and present a fully fleshed out program, complete with new details and highlights. He won't touch down on the opening quad, either, as I am quite ready to believe at this stage of his Olympic quest -- having heard about his condition from his own mouth, and with the fire lit under him now, with the wind in his back, knowing how the judges are loving what he's doing. He will probably execute the 4-3 without deduction but to be on the safe side, let's just leave him with the 4-2 that he executed imperfectly in Tallinn. So, with no touch down on the opening quad and no freak footwork fall and 4-2 executed well (he will most likely execute 4-3 cleanly, mind you), we're looking at 15+ additional points, bringing his 160.79 up to 175. Now comes the additional choreographic touches and additional connections and transitions, as well as buttery smooth execution overall on presentation, not getting lost anywhere, and presenting with full confidence and fully finished moves in dance elements. This is somewhat difficult to project, but I am going to be very conservative and value it all at 15. We thus arrive at 190 for Stephane.
Now let's revisit Evgeni sweating it out at Vancouver. I doubt that his PCS will go up any from Tallinn. He absolutely must be clean to get his 20 or so JUMP points. I doubt he will increase his spin and footwork point-get. So, where does he get more points? In risky money moves which might backfire on him rather expensively should he not hit. And with these moves he can give up little points here and there, even if he hits but isn't clean.
Stephane gets his additional points with more safety. The footwork. The opening quad he has done in competition after competition. And with his points from the added choreographic touches and perfected presentation, there is far less risk involved, with less point concession worries. He may even do a 3-jump combo or two. Stephane's 190 is more solid in projection than Evgeni's generously projected 200 from an already grossly inflated score in reality. I also think there is a very good chance that Stephane will outscore a clean Evgeni in the free skate.
Evgeni scored 91.30 in the SP, and Stephane 77.75. The point gap is 13.55 between them at Tallinn. In Vancouver, I don't see a gap this big happening. It won't happen. It simply will not happen. The most Evgeni will pull ahead of Stephane there will be 5-7, max, even if Stephane opts for 2A, which I don't think he will do. (I think there is a good chance he will go for 3A and hit it in the SP.) Not in double digit. There is a very good chance -- nay, probability -- that Stephane will open up a much bigger gap in the PCS from the rest of the field. Stephane's SP is just very very strong all around. I think he will set himself up for the LP in a striking position, coming out of the SP.
There is less room for Plushenko to realistically increase his combined score from Tallinn, where they were generous. A clean Stephane is a winning Stephane. And this gorgeous, delicate, crazy-difficulty laden La Traviata long program is the linchpin to his crowning glory. Think quilt. It isn't just an eye candy. It packs a hefty wop of a punch in the points department. And it is much better for injured Stephane's body than the programs he's been known for in the past. If he'd gone for another Poeta, we may have an even more aggravated Stephane today. Poeta's beauty highlights did not yield commensurably in the points department, while straining his body and using up a LOT of energy.
La Traviata is a marathon of a program, one LONG series of transitions and connections and footwork. It tests his stamina. It is unrelenting in its pace. It is really so much more intricate and complicated than it looks to the casual viewer. To make it float like that and show no strain, and just keep continuing the flow requires a lot of control and TECHNIQUE. (And yet he manages to throw in the element of abandon, which is crazy, but which he nevertheless manages.) What I like the most about it is that the movements in it are more beneficial to Stephane, as well as to his TES and PCS. It is quite simply smart. They worked around a crippling handicap, and managed to turn it into an advantage. Look at his carriage today! The smoothness! Genius. Team Stephane worked a wonder, nothing less. I think the judges see that, and appreciate that.
-- S3
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 24, 2010 20:23:07 GMT 1
I don't understand the point of having something on the costume that moves with you if people can't see it. Movie and opera costumers routinely create costumes with a lot of details that most people won't ever see. But they do it because it will help with the performance. And apparently it works for the performers because they keep doing it. It's sort of like us with our lingerie, the exquisite kind, that no one else will likely see - well, if you're single, anyway. You have a better day knowing that under your clothes is a magnificent magical armor. Well, that's how I justify my habit anyway. -- S4
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Post by sigrid on Jan 24, 2010 21:02:58 GMT 1
swissmiss: I'm not really into the NMQP costume either, but it sorto makes sense for the program. Same here. I don't like it too much neither, but it suits the program perfectly About the LP, I think that (at last) we're seeing that mature Steph. You know, it's different from Flamenco or OP, it's like he's enough mature for being calm, he doesn't need the stamina of the 2 previous programs for making it work... I don't know if I can explain it well. It's like he can make more (magic) with less (strenght)
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Post by freefall on Jan 24, 2010 21:38:05 GMT 1
It's like he can make more (magic) with less (strenght) Ne me quitte pas is a great example for your words: such simple movements and what a spell it puts on you! But I can't judge how much it applies to La Traviata - as I said I see its performance in Tallinn only as a sketch. And I think you are right - he had to choose this kind of music for the Olympics, his usual experimental music would be too much of a risk. And now the judges are visibly pleased with it. So it was probably the right choice considering that. As for the costume I never liked Yagudin's costumes so maybe that's the why .
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