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Post by kallianna on Jun 23, 2016 21:31:03 GMT 1
Actually it's the opposite, he says it's normal to have to go through the whole process, he's actually pointing out that that's not the way things happen in France, and that Vanessa actually has a French diploma, that was recognized by Swiss Olympic.
About the despair of the skaters and parents, what I gathered from some of the comments is that a lot of skaters and their parents actually don't like Vanessa and the way she runs her classes, so they're very disappointed to have to swithc ovr to her way of teaching.
I think that the only reason anyone is now trying to make it look like they could work all together is because this came out in the press, so I actually think his answer is very logical: since no one actually wants them there, it would be totally counterproductive to waste time and energy trying to make something work, when it clearly won't.
And yes, it does appear she wants to reduce 1-on-1 classes and put more emphasis on collective classes.
Something else that was picked up in comments is that it seems the person who ruled on this is actually good buddies with Vanessa, so people are upset that the decision might not have been totally unbiased...
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Post by reut on Jun 23, 2016 22:53:14 GMT 1
He says "in other countries", not "in France" specifically. As far as I know Brian Joubert has to learn quite a lot to get coaching diploma in France. So I don't think Vanessa got hers automatically. And, well, also she has a high qualification as a technical controller (although I doubt she really needs to use deep knowledge of rules on the level she coaches...)
This doesn't sound like he actually is glad to make the long route, more like his usual diplomatic way to point out the opposite thing: "Je suis fier de suivre la formation du système suisse même s’il ne privilégie pas ses champions. Contrairement à d’autres pays, sans doute, on ne m’a pas accordé de raccourci pour devenir entraîneur." But whatever. Actually it's less important. But I still wonder why it's five years. I also wonder what are those two years he mentions ("Cela fait deux ans que je me forme", what does this mean "je me forme"?) because last time we discussed his teaching he mentioned one course he took and books he reads.
I also don't understand something else. There were five coaches in Vernets (I think this was a number mentioned in one of the articles). Now, when Vanessa is chosen as a director everyone will teach only according to what she says? There were a few propositions, only one could be chosen obviously. Did that automatically mean that all the others will be "not wanted there" and it will be "counterproductive" to stay? Was this clear from the very beginning, before it was known who will be chosen?
Also, to be more precise Stephane personally was never wasting time and energy in Vernets, he was never teaching there on the first place. So for him it shouldn't change. Except he was still coming to train at that rink because of Peter (I wonder how often actually), even if he can have as much ice as he wants on his rink in Champery.
I'm surprised there is nothing from Peter. I guess journalists (or is it the same one in all the articles? too lazy to check) prefer to use Stephane's name, it sells much better, but still. No comments from Vanessa? No comments from Peter who was actually coaching there unlike Stephane?
There were a lot of xenophobic, nasty and illogical comments under those articles, I doubt I can trust any of them and any information which was written there.
In general I have a bad "after taste" from this story. Too much noise, too many people used his name for their own purposes. And he himself sounds like a sore loser, which is really not like him. I understand a bit more now why he wanted to take part in this project. It was an ambitious plan. At the age of 31 to become a head of big school, also the one he started in and all that story about Vernets being his home. But it looks like it was so obvious to him (and to parents and skaters "in despair"?) that he wins. And he suddenly didn't. I wonder if the same noise and same amount of publications would have appeared if it was the other way round and Vanessa had lost. Because clearly if she had lost it would be suggested to her to stay and try to make it work and be productive. Or not?
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Post by jomeku on Jun 23, 2016 23:22:04 GMT 1
There has been an article with Vanessa's point of view: www.tdg.ch/geneve/Vanessa-Gusmeroli-repond-a-ses-detracteurs/story/27225660I think what bothers Stéphane the most is that the deciding Sports Dept of Geneva in their evaluation of the candidacies did not consider the teaching method, as they said themselves last Monday, according to the article. Stéphane sees Mr Grütter as heir of the method of Jacques Gerswiler and finds it's a necessity that this method, philosophy finds its continuation "...A method that has proved itself and which helped me become who I am ...". And how can one pass by "the best swiss coach in 'Vernets', one of the best in the world". As you already said, I also have the impression Stéphane wants to help Mr Grütter, above all. I feel sorry for Stéphane that at the distance he has to deals with those things from Japan. It would be early enough and more correct if he would not be bothered with it before being back home. ... Those xenophobic comments you mention, Reut, are sad. But, as you mentioned earlier, they absolutely have nothing to do with Stéphane (and Stéphane not with them!). I estimate that here it's mostly an expression of some local frustrations and unfortunately a certain party (ab-)uses those frustrations and the case for their politics and pour oil on the fire. Let's forget about it, please!
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Post by reut on Jun 23, 2016 23:28:13 GMT 1
Thank, jomeku, will try to read it carefully tomorrow when I'm less sleepy. I actually wonder if "Ice Legends" will take place in Vernets next year... After all this.
Update: I read it with google translate to make it fast. Well, she didn't really bring details to understand why it is so different from Peter/Stephane's philosophy, where it is better, etc. I wonder if such things are open for the public to read (as she proposed to read her proposition and then decide, but what she says is too general to make conclusions).
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Post by jomeku on Jun 24, 2016 0:26:16 GMT 1
Me too, I wondered about Ice Legends at 'Vernets' next year . But then, the more I think about it the more I believe we should wait and see. the story got polemicized enough already. Unfortunately there's no clear statement from the town of Geneva (to say the truth I would not be too surprised if they just chose the lower cost project, more or less). But as the decision appeared in the newspaper, (poor) Stéphane was brought to react from Japan, Mr Grütter did not publicly say anything, everything we have is "just" from Tdg ... and the reaction of alarmed skaters ... plus other opinions that have not much to do with the matter. I start to think the victim of no clear communication are Stéphane, Mr Grütter and Vanessa all at the same time.
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Post by kallianna on Jun 24, 2016 9:04:12 GMT 1
He says "in other countries", not "in France" specifically. As far as I know Brian Joubert has to learn quite a lot to get coaching diploma in France. So I don't think Vanessa got hers automatically. And, well, also she has a high qualification as a technical controller (although I doubt she really needs to use deep knowledge of rules on the level she coaches...) This doesn't sound like he actually is glad to make the long route, more like his usual diplomatic way to point out the opposite thing: "Je suis fier de suivre la formation du système suisse même s’il ne privilégie pas ses champions. Contrairement à d’autres pays, sans doute, on ne m’a pas accordé de raccourci pour devenir entraîneur." But whatever. Actually it's less important. But I still wonder why it's five years. I also wonder what are those two years he mentions ("Cela fait deux ans que je me forme", what does this mean "je me forme"?) because last time we discussed his teaching he mentioned one course he took and books he reads. "Je me forme" means "I'm training or studying for something". I think he's a little bitter that it isn't made easier for him, especially because it is done in other countries. It might simply take so long for him because he's always busy with so many things, and maybe he has to reschedule some classes that perhaps only take place once a year... I don't know anything about this Swiss Olympic diploma, so I can't say for sure. I also don't understand something else. There were five coaches in Vernets (I think this was a number mentioned in one of the articles). Now, when Vanessa is chosen as a director everyone will teach only according to what she says? There were a few propositions, only one could be chosen obviously. Did that automatically mean that all the others will be "not wanted there" and it will be "counterproductive" to stay? Was this clear from the very beginning, before it was known who will be chosen? That's actually exactly what they were aiming for with this change. They want only 1 method and only 1 price. Now I don't know how it's actually going to play out in reality, but that's what the city authorities wanted. Also, to be more precise Stephane personally was never wasting time and energy in Vernets, he was never teaching there on the first place. So for him it shouldn't change. Except he was still coming to train at that rink because of Peter (I wonder how often actually), even if he can have as much ice as he wants on his rink in Champery. That's not what I meant, I just meant that when someone doesn't want you to take part in a project and you still insist on trying, you're usually wasting your time and your energy, since you weren't wanted from the beginning. This appears to be the situation now in Geneva, the inital plan was to clear out all other coaches, but now that it's a scandal in the press they act like it isn't the case and anyone can still collaborate with them. I don't know how productive it would be to even try. I'm surprised there is nothing from Peter. I guess journalists (or is it the same one in all the articles? too lazy to check) prefer to use Stephane's name, it sells much better, but still. No comments from Vanessa? No comments from Peter who was actually coaching there unlike Stephane? Might be he just didn't want to comment, who knows. There were a lot of xenophobic, nasty and illogical comments under those articles, I doubt I can trust any of them and any information which was written there. Well I'm sorry to say it's actually a very common attitude here lately, especially in Geneva. There's even a French journalist who wrote a book on the open racism that is now expressed against the French in Switzerland, and although she got a lot of hate for her book, she's actually pretty spot on. French people get called names, and most people regard them with open suspicion, because the general feeling is that French people are stealing Swiss peoples' jobs and driving salaries down. The first part is crazy for the most part, but there have been studies that show that transborder workers do in fact drive salaries down. A lot of families in Geneva can't afford to live there anymore because their paycheck has gone down, when cost of life hasn't. So if you disregard all comments because some were xenophobic and stupid, you should always disregard all comments on Swiss articles ;-) And some comments actually seemed pretty sane, it really looked like some skaters' parents commenting on the teaching methods and so on. But sources are obvisouly unverifiable so you're right, it might be better to disregard the comments. In general I have a bad "after taste" from this story. Too much noise, too many people used his name for their own purposes. And he himself sounds like a sore loser, which is really not like him. I understand a bit more now why he wanted to take part in this project. It was an ambitious plan. At the age of 31 to become a head of big school, also the one he started in and all that story about Vernets being his home. But it looks like it was so obvious to him (and to parents and skaters "in despair"?) that he wins. And he suddenly didn't. I wonder if the same noise and same amount of publications would have appeared if it was the other way round and Vanessa had lost. Because clearly if she had lost it would be suggested to her to stay and try to make it work and be productive. Or not? I think he's really hurt by the situation, he seems to feel like he was slapped in the face. No, there would not have been such a scandal if he had been chosen, for sure. But I'm not at all sure it would have been suggested to Vanessa to stay and try to make it work. After all, the political goal was to unify the teaching methods and prices... I tried to find the different propositions but I didn't find them, and got tired of looking, sorry. ETA: I realized what I wrote above about transborder workers might make it look like I agree with the nutjobs spweing racist slurrs. I don't. I really, really don't. If transborder workers induce a fall in salaries, it's only because idiot bosses in Switzerland offer them lower salaries than they would to Swiss workers, so if anyone's to blame, it's them, not the French people who come here looking for jobs and a brighter future.
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Post by reut on Jun 24, 2016 10:32:06 GMT 1
"Je me forme" means "I'm training or studying for something". I think he's a little bitter that it isn't made easier for him, especially because it is done in other countries. Yes, that's exactly what I felt in his words. And I don't agree with him. Being a champion doesn't make him a good teacher automatically (and there are enough of contrary examples actually), so I don't see any reason why it should be made easier for him. Just my opinion only, of course. Yes, maybe it takes so long because he is very busy. But then how he can know exactly that it's another three years. Maybe it's another four or five if he suddenly gets new big project? I'm a bit surprised this "two years learning" is mentioned for the first time. For example, I explicitly asked him about "more formal education" last autumn and he didn't mention it back then. I see. Now I recall it was indeed mentioned in one of the earlier articles that they wanted to make some order in the school. So, once again, there were five professors in Vernets (Stephane is not among them, but he is "with Peter" kind of). Some of them (I'm even not sure that there were only two propositions, maybe there were more?) proposed their plan and vision for re-org. City authorities basically said: we need one plan, one person and the rest either commits completely to new rules or goes. And that was the situation for everyone and everyone knew that ahead, with any "winner" who would come. Stephane+Peter submitted their proposition, Vanessa submitted hers. I really, really doubt that theirs was all "rainbows and unicorns" and hers was totally and absolutely unprofessional. I guess they had quite different approaches and philosophies, while each one had pros and cons. Vanessa was chosen, Stephane and Peter lost. And all this, by the way, is only for two years period. Now why he sounds so hurt and where all these parents and young skaters "in despair" are coming from? It was a competition, he lost. Me personally I'm really sorry, as I always think that he IS truly the best out there, he deserves the best, to always win, etc. But not the first time it happens that he doesn't. Were they all so sure that Stephane and Peter will win? Why? He absolutely couldn't lose just because he is big Swiss champion and Swiss public's darling and she is not? Why he feels like he was slapped in the face by the fact that someone else's vision was chosen instead? Yes, I get that he thinks his and Peter's approaches are the best, but it is all rather subjective. And let's face it, this approach helped Stephane but he was the only really successful student Peter ever had, so it's not that their system was worldwide proven to be the only true one. I believe Stephane truly and sincerely wants the best for all the young skaters. But I doubt that all that Vanessa wants is control and more money (like some commentators suggested in comments under the publications). But maybe all this is just a hollow talk as we really don't know which plan was proposed by each party... I see. Although again, I guess it would have been the same for any professor in Vernets who loses. For Vanessa too. Also, if I understand it right it's not that they are "not wanted", it's more like they don't accept her way of teaching. Might be the case, yes. Naturally I'm a bit more sensitive above average for any xenophobic behaviour ("genetic memory" and all that ). And, to tell the truth, I can't say I was totally surprised to see it on Swiss site. Also I usually never read so called talkbacks under articles/interviews (not only Swiss, any). I checked them this time because I saw there were so unusually many and I wondered if there is something there which might explain the situation better. I was wrong. Will never do it again. I'm sorry he is disappointed. I'm sorry Peter decided to leave Vernets. I'm a bit worried about next edition of "Ice Legends". But I don't understand why this story made so much noise...
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Post by reut on Jun 24, 2016 10:39:57 GMT 1
ETA: I realized what I wrote above about transborder workers might make it look like I agree with the nutjobs spweing racist slurrs. I don't. I really, really don't. If transborder workers induce a fall in salaries, it's only because idiot bosses in Switzerland offer them lower salaries than they would to Swiss workers, so if anyone's to blame, it's them, not the French people who come here looking for jobs and a brighter future. No, it doesn't look like that. And this situation is actually rather common. In many countries, in Israel too. Yet situation with Vanessa and with figure skating in Switzerland is a bit different. I doubt she was invited to Vernets because she was cheaper. And she is hardly the only foreign figure skating coach teaching in Switzerland right now.
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Post by jomeku on Jun 25, 2016 8:30:33 GMT 1
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Post by jomeku on Jun 25, 2016 15:01:41 GMT 1
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Post by reut on Jun 27, 2016 8:57:55 GMT 1
Thanks for the link, jomeku. I tried to read it carefully, I still didn't find answers to my questions. Except it looks like Vanessa was planning to keep private lessons too: "En favorisant des forfaits avec des cours collectifs moins cher – sans supprimer les cours privés – nous pourrions au moins diminuer cette somme de moitié" And I understand a bit better the city council's point of view.
I hope now when Stephane is back from Japan they all can meet and solve it...
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Post by jomeku on Jun 27, 2016 18:56:09 GMT 1
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Post by reut on Jun 28, 2016 8:46:51 GMT 1
On a different subject. I shared this video on Twitter but forgot to share it here. Very interesting video art work inspired by "My Body is a Cage" vimeo.com/120958004In a way I feel that it showed me why I love his skating so much. It is so impressive and has so many details, that even when portrayed in such "simplified" way it is very recognizable. And very beautiful too.
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Post by reut on Jun 30, 2016 8:38:54 GMT 1
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Post by reut on Jun 30, 2016 10:17:02 GMT 1
Japanese "World Figure Skating" magazine published a photo of Stephane and Brian and with Google translate I understood there will be an interview with both of them where they recall their friendship and all years they competed together/against each other. Must be fun.
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