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Post by sigrid on Jan 25, 2010 17:28:14 GMT 1
I agree with elanor, it's better if he doesn't put much pressure on himself. In the Olympics only will be 2 skaters with a previous Olympic Medal (Plushenko, and Steph). The most of the other skaters are close to retiring (Lysacek, Weir, Joubert...) and they want to do it with an Olympic medal, so the pressure is for them. Steph has medals in absolutely all the possible competitions (Euros, Worlds, Olympics, Nats, GPF, GP events...) so this last Olympics for him should be like a party, for enjoying the skating, and make the people enjoy. If everything works and he gets a medal, perfect! If it doesn't, he can come back home with his head held high
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 25, 2010 17:50:27 GMT 1
I agree with elanor, it's better if he doesn't put much pressure on himself. LOL, easier said than done! Good luck with that. I was really concerned for him on the mental front during Tallinn. He was just so tense, especially right after each performance. Every time I get to the end of La Traviata I giggle a little bit when he faces the audience. The transformation that comes over him! He was thinking about the things that he let slip, and then he sees the crowd going crazy for him, and he just lights up! Watching him during the press conference, I was struck by his determined tone. He has a better overall picture now, after the Euros, I feel. I sense he is more motivated than ever. As far as pressure goes, I wouldn't want to be around Team Lysacek these days. Now there's a pressure cooker right there. Frank Carroll's obsession with gold, denied for so long, coupled with his authoritarian style ... Tarasova is an authoritarian also, but she has produced solid results with her brand of authoritarianism. Grutter and Brunner, just to look at them is reassuring and comforting! In the Olympics only will be 2 skaters with a previous Olympic Medal (Plushenko, and Steph). The most of the other skaters are close to retiring (Lysacek, Weir, Joubert...) and they want to do it with an Olympic medal, so the pressure is for them. Don't forget the Japanese and the Canadian media. Man, they don't make it easy on their skaters. I got a very strong vibe that Weir will retire after this (since he talks of it, LOL), but are Lysacek and Joubert also? The pressure really is on those skaters who haven't put quads in their programs regularly. The game has been changed because of Stephane and Evgeni. It's a different landscape now. I think Stephane smells blood. I like seeing him like this. Things are clicking inside his head! -- S4
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Post by kallianna on Jan 25, 2010 18:24:01 GMT 1
If we're talking about media, we should definitely not forget the French press and the huge amount of pressure they put on Joubert's shoulders, calling him "our surest shot at a medal". The president of his federation doesn't help either. He just keeps piling that pressure high, saying things like "he has to get up as an olympic champion, breakfast as an olympic champion, shower as an olympic champion, train as an olympic champion, live every minute as an olympic champion." If that isn't pressure, I don't know what is. And now, after the "disappointing" bronze he came out and said "He's never stronger than when he is weak" and that he was going to see if Joubert and his coach couldn't work better and harder for the next three weeks. Then again, Swiss press also pressures Stéphane, but it's much more in a "We don't think you can nail your comeback" kind of way. So I guess his silver medal will put an end to this sort of unpleasantness. Or at least I hope so. EDIT: I also noticed a distinctive change in Stéphane's behavior after his LP and seeing the scores. He said " Now I really believe I actually have a chance in Vancouver". It's like he only really starts to believe it now. So I'm really glad he got silver
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 25, 2010 18:54:09 GMT 1
The French federation is always so ... entertaining. What I sense in the Swiss press is a reasonable amount of elation (very understandable), and a well founded optimism, and a slight whiff of concern (voiced or not). Sort of like us. I was trawling the net for some articles to translate from Korean, and happened upon a blog of an academic who is really into FS. What he said was pretty awesome. He felt that Stephane's return to the competition is great because we not only get to see a great skater but also a great human being to admire, someone who is back to participate not for some medal color but for the love of his craft, as a master craftsman. Props to the prof. But I tell you ... it's built into an elite athlete, this competitiveness. Stephane smells blood. -- S4
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 25, 2010 23:02:31 GMT 1
I refrained from responding right away so that other voices and views could participate and register their own conjectures and prognostications, too. I also considered just letting it go (a more tempting option for me) but have decided in favor of trusting in your judgment and maturity, to go ahead and respond. Please do not read my words in your head in an angry or defensive voice. I just want to clarify a few things for accuracy's sake. That is all. This is in no way an invitation to a tit-tat. And if it is taken in that way, I will refrain from responding further. sally IV: I understand what you are saying, and you are probably right that Stéphane needed to do something that was difficult yet not as contorting to his limbs. I do not think you understood me ... Still, I see La Traviata as a work in progress. Perhaps freefall and I are the only people who have that opinion. No. Most of us have probably watched his press conference, and Stephane himself has made it very clear that there will be things added to it. I have also on more than a few occasions, even in this thread, as well as in other conversations, offered my conjectures that he will do this very thing -- work on it further. Also, I wouldn't get too hyped up about the Europeans scores. Can you please produce a quote where I got "hyped up" about the Europeans scores, please? I remember using the words "generous," "inflated," "grossly inflated," etc. in describing the scores given out there, and not only on Plushenko's "bleeping insane" scores. I respectfully request that I be allowed to correct the hyping of what I have been actually saying. Vancouver is another situation, however. Evan Lysacek, Jeremy Abbott, Johnny Weir, Patrick Chan, plus Oda and Takahashi (I think) will be there along with Brian. The men's field is a lot deeper than it was in 2006, which was hardly a weak field. As Stephane himself has said so eloquently, every competition is different. Every judging panel is different. I did not mean to give you the impression that there will be only Stephane and Evgeni at Vancouver, or that I thought the Europeans scoring is to be taken more seriously than various Nationals scores. Olympic games are different, I know. If you can't accept the numbers I flung out a few posts ahead, reduce them by 20 or even 30, if you like. It was a very broad, sketchy demonstration -- the most optimistic projection -- of the maximum they could get, starting out from the generous marks they got in Tallinn, to make my point about each skater's capacity to increase the scores. I've got no other numbers to work with for Stephane. Nebelhorn and Swiss Nationals do not work at this point, besides the fact that these competitions were not as elite, shallower in talent pool. Plushenko will probably have to make a lot of major mistakes to finish off the podium. CoP has not worked against him, despite all the talk that all-around skaters would benefit from the new judging system. High technical scores seem to automatically mean high program component scores. Unless the judges magically turn against Plushenko and start giving him scores for choreography, transitions, and interpretation that are more in line with what he actually does or he has an uncharacteristically poor skate, he is almost a lock for a medal, if not the gold medal. I think Plushenko has definitely shed his rust, and now I do see him as a contender. But not necessarily as the favorite, as I've said. I am well aware that this is a minority opinion, but that's where I am, nevertheless. And I've given my reasons in my previous post. I don't think the judges will "magically turn against Plushenko," as you put it. I do think the judges will score him differently from before -- by how little or big, I don't know. (knock on wood) We are not the only ones to note his PCS inflation. That's for sure. I also happen to think it is rather characteristic of him to have poor skates, because he is a glaringly flawed skater in my mind. But yes, unless his notable jump consistency suddenly leaves him, he seems to have a lock on a medal. "High technical scores seem to automatically mean high program component scores" indeed (blech!) ... but that could change. (knock on wood) Stephane's presence in the mix has significant ramifications. And if the judges refuse to see this point, then they will be foolish, because MANY eyes will see this point. One doesn't need to be a certified FS judge to see the glaring difference, and tongues will wag, and not just the regular FS community tongues. Olympics is in a way Figure Skating community's showcasing of its sport-art to the rest of the world which does not follow it the way the regular figure skating viewership -- significantly decreased in this cycle -- does. It redefines itself with every Olympic -- its ideals, aspirations, future course, etc. -- and makes a statment about itself to the larger world community. What message it will want to send about itself, we shall see at Vancouver. I hope, for the good of the sport/art, that the judges do not bring disgrace to the entire figure skating community, and show FS off to the outside world as the beautiful sport that it is, that it can be, something to be proud of, to be admired, something magical. And I hope that the judging will make sense to everyone, figure skating followers as well as people who only tune into it for the Olympics. Jitters rule at the Olympics. There will be splats. Those who hold it together will separate themselves from the pack. I like the numeric system we've got now, though, because it makes it less predictable from SP to LP, unlike the ordinal system we had before, which made for less movement between the two phases. So much of the Olympic figure skating is psychological, too, and such a mental marathon. I think it will be Stephane and Evgeni fighting for the top spot, with the rest of the field fighting it out for the bronze. Either of them can, of course, wind up with the bronze or off the podium. But this is how I see it right now as the more likely scenario. I will name the following as my medal contenders: Takahashi or Oda (only one of them on the podium) Abbott or Lysacek (Abbott is more likely) Chan (if there be a lot of splats and he is clean) * I may change my mind as we get closer to Vancouver date. If someone takes himself out with an injury, then the whole picture changes, of course. No one is! I don't remember anyone saying anyone was, either. I went out on a limb and made my projection and shared it. I did not present it as something carved in stone. I do think it likely that a clean Stephane (with fully presented choreography, two quads, 2 combos -- hopefully one a 3-jump combo) will beat a clean Plushenko with a somewhat increased jump difficulty. The judges could all come in high as a kite, or with pre-scribbled scoresheets, sure. But if Stephane stands up, I don't think they will dare. Being of (more or less) sound mind, I doubt either will be absolutely clean. Tallinn scores are just hypothetical starting point. There are a whole lot of variables involved, I know. The earth could blow up between now and Vancouver, too. And I don't want to get into all that. I wanted to have a general starting point, a general outline. And that is where I am, and I've shared it. I also understand that each person will have different prognostications (or none at all) and estimations. No skin off my nose. You may strongly disagree with my ideas, and I expect you all to have very different ideas from mine. All that I ask is that I not be chided for something I didn't say, and that my idea be heard by those who are interested in giving it a fair look. I've also enjoyed reading your thoughts, by the way. I always do! -- S4
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Post by sha on Jan 25, 2010 23:33:27 GMT 1
Wow! Sally! to read your comments is sometimes needed big cup of coffee because it will take longer time you are just amazing about that but don't understand me wrong - I don't mind!
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Post by Hoosierfan on Jan 26, 2010 5:50:26 GMT 1
Sally IV: I do not want to get into a tit for tat with you either. One of the reasons I pretty much abandoned this board was the postings that got out of hand some time ago. I got sick of having to respond to nastiness and feeling as if I had to get nasty just to be heard. I don't come here to get into arguments. You have your opinions, I have mine. We may agree sometimes; we may disagree other times. I hope that we can be mature and not try to pick apart each other's posts or take offense at everything that does not agree with our own thoughts. Having said that, I find it a bit strange that you don't want to get into a tit for tat, and then take select quotes from my posts out of context and try to respond to them as if those quotes were directed solely at you or in response to your posts. I did understand what you wrote, and please don't try to tell me that I didn't. It is apparent from your most recent post that you are taking what I wrote as direct responses to you when most of what I wrote was not. I have no problem with understanding English. Yes, I am a Hoosier, but I'm no dumb Hoosier. ;D Before you say, "But I never said you were a dumb Hoosier!" I know you didn't write that. Nothing you've written so far is beyond my comprehension. I don't happen to agree with some of your opinions. I do have my own opinions independent of what you or anyone else may write. You appear to be taking personal offense and even go so far as to suggest that your ideas are not being heard. My posts were not solely directed at you, and most of them were not directed at anyone in particular. The phrase "hyped up" was not meant as literally or as pointedly as you seem to take it. What I meant was, that there is no need for any of us to use Stéphane's scores at Europeans as indicative of what could happen at the Olympics. I'm not going to get all excited that Stéphane vaulting from fifth place to second is a likely scenario at Olympics. Yeah, it could happen. He could go from seventh place to first. It's unlikely, but it could happen. My comment about freefall and I perhaps being the only ones who see La Traviata as a work in progress was a response--to kayin--who said that she did not see La Traviata as a sketch. I'm well aware that Stéphane said in the press conference that he intended to make the program even more beautiful at the Olympics. Does that mean he will perform it as is, only better? Or does that mean he will make significant changes to the content of the program? I don't know. Freefall and I like the program but we don't love it, mainly because it does seem incomplete and stripped down by comparison to previous programs. (I hope that I am not misunderstanding anything freefall said). You don't agree. I understand that. As I said before, Stéphane has made a simple, not necessarily easy, but elegant program. I understand that Stéphane and his team constructed a program that does not require the same types of movements of his previous programs or that we may see from other skaters. They may have had to work around injuries. They may be trying to present a different phase of his development as a skater. La Traviata is not something I adore the way I do most of his other programs. I didn't much like King Arthur, but it won Stéphane a world title, so my likes or dislikes obviously don't count for much As for Stéphane not being a lock for an Olympic medal, I am also well aware that no one said that. Again my statement is my independent opinion, not necessarily in response to what you or anyone else said. Is there no allowance for making a freestanding opinion on this board without people saying, "No one said that!" "I didn't say that!" and so on? The only skater I think is a "lock" for a medal is Plushenko, barring, illness, injury, or him just not showing up for some reason. I would love to be wrong about that. But his recent history has been that if he shows up and stays vertical (or even mostly vertical) throughout the competition he will win a medal, often gold. By the way, I don't dislike the man. I have a tremendous respect for his consistency and athleticism. He also seems to be a nice guy with a good sense of humor. I just don't care much for Plushenko's skating. I was not chiding your posts or anyone else's. No offense, but I think that you are taking my posts way too personally. We obviously don't agree about some things. That's okay.
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Post by stephanie2006 on Jan 26, 2010 9:58:30 GMT 1
I was so delighted about the comeback so I would have enjoyed to see any programs if old or new. But now it turns out that Tell and Traviata are even my two favourite programs ever! Seeing them live in training and first time in competition at Nebelhorn and in Tallinn were very special moments. I love the music, the costumes and the choreography. During Traviata there is always something happening and it's running from one highlight to the other. The changed order of jumps makes it still more interesting. And it totally works for the crowd for clapping, singing and screaming
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 26, 2010 14:19:50 GMT 1
Sally IV: I do not want to get into a tit for tat with you either. Excellent! One of the reasons I pretty much abandoned this board was the postings that got out of hand some time ago. I got sick of having to respond to nastiness and feeling as if I had to get nasty just to be heard. I don't come here to get into arguments. Good. You have your opinions, I have mine. We may agree sometimes; we may disagree other times. I hope that we can be mature and not try to pick apart each other's posts or take offense at everything that does not agree with our own thoughts. Having said that, I find it a bit strange that you don't want to get into a tit for tat, and then take select quotes from my posts out of context and try to respond to them as if those quotes were directed solely at you or in response to your posts. I respond using quotes for clarity's sake, as a responsible poster. This is what you wrote. sally IV: I understand what you are saying, and you are probably right that Stéphane needed to do something that was difficult yet not as contorting to his limbs. Still, I see La Traviata as a work in progress. Perhaps freefall and I are the only people who have that opinion. Also, I wouldn't get too hyped up about the Europeans scores. Both Stéphane and Evgeny entered Europeans as World champions and Olympic medalists and the reputations that go with that. If they were even quasi clean, they'd likely get medals, because other than Brian they were the only competitors there with such stellar achievements. I'm not saying that they didn't deserve their medals, but rather, that they are experienced veterans who are more than a step or two ahead of most of the other male European skaters. Vancouver is another situation, however. Evan Lysacek, Jeremy Abbott, Johnny Weir, Patrick Chan, plus Oda and Takahashi (I think) will be there along with Brian. The men's field is a lot deeper than it was in 2006, which was hardly a weak field. Any mistakes will loom large, especially if the others are mostly clean. Lysacek's skating is rather dull, but he has the reputation of being a two-time national champion and reigning world champion now. Abbott is also a two-time national champion. Oda has improved by leaps and bounds. The whole world seems to be in love with Patrick Chan. I don't get all the Chan love, but unless he absolutely implodes, he has a good shot at the podium. Plushenko will probably have to make a lot of major mistakes to finish off the podium. CoP has not worked against him, despite all the talk that all-around skaters would benefit from the new judging system. High technical scores seem to automatically mean high program component scores. Unless the judges magically turn against Plushenko and start giving him scores for choreography, transitions, and interpretation that are more in line with what he actually does or he has an uncharacteristically poor skate, he is almost a lock for a medal, if not the gold medal. That leaves an awful lot of skaters fighting for the other two medals. I'm terrible at making predictions, and I hope I'm wrong. As much as I would love for Stéphane to be atop the Olympic podium (or at least on the poduim) he is not a lock for a medal, let alone gold. Nor will a clean Stéphane necessarly beat a clean Plushenko. He might, but he might not. Much as you and I and most everyone here think that Stéphane's skating makes others look like pretenders to the throne, the judges may not necessarily see things that way. I was directly addressed. I saw things in it to be clarified. I made corrections and clarifications. Correct attribution is what mature posters take care to do, to minimize confusion -- in consideration of others. Here we differ in opinion. But we both seem to be in agreement that differences in opinion is fine. I really and truly do not mind differences in opinion. So we disagree. Big whoop. Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps you could have made it more clear in your above post. Quotation helps -- in my opinion, which you are welcome to disregard, of course. I actually am very interested in the minority opinions, and am VERY GLAD that those who don't find it as thrilling as many others do came out and stated it. It is important, the minority opinions. It also takes guts and integrity. I admire that in posters. Speaking of King Arthur, the same costumers made the La Traviata costume. I've noticed the similarity in the overall silhouette. He won his first World title in their "suit of armor" and I hope he will emerge a king in their "Prince at play" ensemble. The more I look at La Traviata's front plate design the more enchanting it becomes to me. Let's hope that your feelings about both programs means a repeat result for Stephane! If this keeps happening to you, then perhaps there is something in it worth examining. I don't say this as an attack on you, or your posting style. However you take it, or choose to ignore it, I said it in a spirit of constructiveness and hope you take it for what it is. No offense taken. I personally judged the situation to call for a clarification. No offense was intended in it either, for my part. Absolutely in agreement! I have no problems whatsoever with diversity of opinions. Distortions, noise, static, incivility, and lack of logic ... these I don't care for so much in online communication. I want to emphasize to you again that I took no offense. I personally haven't found offensive or objectionable content in your postings (that I've come across) as yet. I wish you peace and more online enjoyment. Now let's get back to our business of being Stephane's fans.We don't want to become distractions, do we? -- S4
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 26, 2010 14:49:09 GMT 1
Wow! Sally! to read your comments is sometimes needed big cup of coffee because it will take longer time you are just amazing about that but don't understand me wrong - I don't mind! I'm amazed by your consistent sweetness. It is always very pleasant and charming to come across your positive, unfailingly cheerful posts. I also want to take this opportunity to express my admiration and appreciation of so many nationalities represented here to whom English isn't their native language. I am impressed by your command of the language, and how you all manage to get your points across, often quite charmingly. I give you all a very high "artistic impression" score. -- S4
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Post by reut on Jan 26, 2010 15:38:40 GMT 1
I was so delighted about the comeback so I would have enjoyed to see any programs if old or new. But now it turns out that Tell and Traviata are even my two favourite programs ever! Seeing them live in training and first time in competition at Nebelhorn and in Tallinn were very special moments. I love the music, the costumes and the choreography. During Traviata there is always something happening and it's running from one highlight to the other. The changed order of jumps makes it still more interesting. And it totally works for the crowd for clapping, singing and screaming Absolutely agree with every word. The only thing which worried me in the programs of this season is that they looked a bit "too similar". But I liked the explanation Salome (and, I think, Stephane at the press conference too) gave: it's like one composition in two acts, like two parts, "La Traviata" is the continuation of the short, to give some more of the same, but yet something different.
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Post by ageha on Jan 26, 2010 15:52:10 GMT 1
High technical scores seem to automatically mean high program component scores. I totally agree and I totally don't get it... Unless the judges magically turn against Plushenko and start giving him scores for choreography, transitions, and interpretation that are more in line with what he actually does or he has an uncharacteristically poor skate, he is almost a lock for a medal, if not the gold medal. I seriously hope for the former!! I hope that Euros have worked somewhat as a wake-up call for the judges, and that they would come to their senses at the Olympics. ...Well, I know that's a whole lot of optimism... But I do hope the stark contrast between Stephane and Plushenko's skating at Euros did something to remind the judges what program component scores are really about!! Of course the judges are the experts and I shouldn't be the one saying things like that (not to mention I am biased for Stephane), but you don't have to be a Lambiel fan or even a figure skating fan to wonder why there seems to be a positive one-way correlation between technical scores and program component scores. Strange!!
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Post by leana on Jan 29, 2010 13:44:48 GMT 1
Hoosierfan, I like your sober approach towards the reality and I'm 100% with you on it-))
ageha, for me, there's nothing strage in this disbalance - it's sport, above all. It is (and should) be assessed based on objective and transparent measurable criteria associated primarily with technical elements - the jumps, in the first hand. I believe, it's fair. Any sport is fascinating due to risks involved. Athletes pay for running the risk and it’s magical to witness. In FS it’s jumps that is a stumbling-block for most. It's through jumps that skaters tend to get injured, it's a huge headache for them all. Given this, it's only fair that this element is of primary importance for the juges too. Unsurprisingly, when asked about pre-competition preparations, all of the skaters mention and show concern about jumps
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Post by nike2010 on Jan 31, 2010 8:18:21 GMT 1
Leana, it's nice to see you here again. Since it's not easy to respond in the same good-commanded English, I'd like to cite Sally IV from Stephane Rivals thread; I suppose that's what ageha meant. I must confess I even had hope that during Stephane's absence judges would go forward in making their PCS more reasonable and in favour of really artistic skaters. It also seems to me that the AS members tried to do their best to support the opinion that figure skating is far more than just sports. For me personally Harmony stands first, then musicality, then jumps as exclamation points to present the program (B.Boitano's words; he had it all and became the Olympic champion in Canada due to higher marks for artistry). Oh , perhaps we need a thread called Fair Judgment not to be off-topic?
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Post by ageha on Feb 1, 2010 14:46:30 GMT 1
leana, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that jumps are important aspect of figure skating, and probably the most important aspect of the athletic aspect of figure skating ... but I also think that skaters are duly rewarded for good jumps in the TES... nike2010, thanks for citing Sally IV's comment. Yes, that is exactly what I meant! But I agree this is off-topic, so I will stop here
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