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Post by kayin on Jan 24, 2010 22:12:33 GMT 1
I have to admit that i look at La Traviata as something different from a 'sketch', no disrespect intended. I see it as marking a new confidence in Stephane, ok maybe not confidence but an assured-ness (is that even a word?). In previous seasons he seemed intent on packing in as much movement and correct cultural movement (like the genuinely flamenco) into his programs, which was beautiful but seemed exhausting. La Traviata is not an empty program by comparison, to my eyes it has beautiful quality, without having to pack in lots of 'true' or culturally specific movements. In short i think it is simpler, but more mature, as if it was a sculpture and pieces were chipped away to reveal a beautiful program underneath, rather than layering unnessary things on top. It shows a confidence to say 'Okay, i don't need to add more things now.' I wouldn't say the performance was perfect and there is room for refinement, but no need for huge changes. Okay i know that sounds like i am rambling, but does anyone else know what i'm trying (so poorly) to get across?
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Post by Sally IV on Jan 24, 2010 22:26:23 GMT 1
Yep. Pure beauty revealed.
-- S4
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Post by Hoosierfan on Jan 24, 2010 22:58:08 GMT 1
sally IV: I understand what you are saying, and you are probably right that Stéphane needed to do something that was difficult yet not as contorting to his limbs. Still, I see La Traviata as a work in progress. Perhaps freefall and I are the only people who have that opinion. Also, I wouldn't get too hyped up about the Europeans scores. Both Stéphane and Evgeny entered Europeans as World champions and Olympic medalists and the reputations that go with that. If they were even quasi clean, they'd likely get medals, because other than Brian they were the only competitors there with such stellar achievements. I'm not saying that they didn't deserve their medals, but rather, that they are experienced veterans who are more than a step or two ahead of most of the other male European skaters. Vancouver is another situation, however. Evan Lysacek, Jeremy Abbott, Johnny Weir, Patrick Chan, plus Oda and Takahashi (I think) will be there along with Brian. The men's field is a lot deeper than it was in 2006, which was hardly a weak field. Any mistakes will loom large, especially if the others are mostly clean. Lysacek's skating is rather dull, but he has the reputation of being a two-time national champion and reigning world champion now. Abbott is also a two-time national champion. Oda has improved by leaps and bounds. The whole world seems to be in love with Patrick Chan. I don't get all the Chan love, but unless he absolutely implodes, he has a good shot at the podium. Plushenko will probably have to make a lot of major mistakes to finish off the podium. CoP has not worked against him, despite all the talk that all-around skaters would benefit from the new judging system. High technical scores seem to automatically mean high program component scores. Unless the judges magically turn against Plushenko and start giving him scores for choreography, transitions, and interpretation that are more in line with what he actually does or he has an uncharacteristically poor skate, he is almost a lock for a medal, if not the gold medal. That leaves an awful lot of skaters fighting for the other two medals. I'm terrible at making predictions, and I hope I'm wrong. As much as I would love for Stéphane to be atop the Olympic podium (or at least on the poduim) he is not a lock for a medal, let alone gold. Nor will a clean Stéphane necessarly beat a clean Plushenko. He might, but he might not. Much as you and I and most everyone here think that Stéphane's skating makes others look like pretenders to the throne, the judges may not necessarily see things that way.
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Post by sigrid on Jan 24, 2010 23:26:13 GMT 1
About Vancouver, after the SP we will see if Steph has real chances to get a medal. Here in Tallin, he made an important mistake in the SP and finished 5th. Fortunately, 3 of the 4 skaters ahead him fell on the LP. In Vancouver won't be the same thing. With a bad SP you can finish 7th, 8th... and out of the last group, and it's too difficult seeing mistakes in 6 or 7 skaters in the same LP.
What I understood from EC is like somebody said a "welcome back Steph" from the judges, PCS show it. But I also think that the judges saw that Plushenko's PCS were ridiculously high, and they had to mend it.
Of course Steph deserves 8.50-9 in his PCS, but in Canada he'll compete against skaters who have the same strong point (Takahashi, Abbott, Chan...) in Europe he has a monopoly on high PCS IMO. So I think a clean Steph can beat a clean Plush, yes... but maybe a clean Steph can't beat a clean Takahashi... will see.
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Post by kayin on Jan 24, 2010 23:39:21 GMT 1
I'm sure you're not the only ones with that opinion, and please don't misunderstand i wasn't trying to impose my opinion on you or cause an argument. I just wanted to get my point across just like you have. It'd be boring if we all agreed all of the time.
That said, I agree that the olympic field will be much deeper. I think it is going to be very exciting and too early to call at this stage, but as far as Steph's programmes at Euros, i think they have been a reasonably good preparation (only reasonably because they weren't clean). An exciting few weeks to come!
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Post by Hoosierfan on Jan 25, 2010 1:55:07 GMT 1
About Vancouver, after the SP we will see if Steph has real chances to get a medal. Here in Tallin, he made an important mistake in the SP and finished 5th. Fortunately, 3 of the 4 skaters ahead him fell on the LP. In Vancouver won't be the same thing. With a bad SP you can finish 7th, 8th... and out of the last group, and it's too difficult seeing mistakes in 6 or 7 skaters in the same LP. Very well said. It is unlikely that a bad SP at Olympics can be overcome unless the LP plays out like the Skate Canada 2006 event or 2007 Worlds. Plushenko wasn't at those events, however. I don't remember whether Chan or Abbott were, but if so, they were not considered medal contenders at the time. I don't want to sound all negative as if Stéphane is incapable of skating two clean or mostly clean programs at the Olympics. I think he is capable of that, and of course that is what I want for him. There are about ten men who have a chance to medal at the Olympics, however, maybe more. If Stéphane is to win a medal, more than likely (barring a repeat of the Skate Canada situation), he will have to skate two clean (or mostly clean) programs that contain all his planned elements. kayin: I enjoy reading your comments. It appears that freefall and I are the only people who are not in love with La Traviata. At least, we are the only ones who have expressed it. I could fall in love with it, but I'm not there yet.
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Post by freefall on Jan 25, 2010 7:13:32 GMT 1
You are right, guys. I am not sure either that the judges in Vancouver will be as generous to Stephane as they were in Tallinn. I believe that they will drag the American skaters - e.g. Lysachek and Chan - on the podium with high (and even undeserved) marks as long as it doesn't look TOO weird . And if they skate a clean short, I think they will be given a huge lead even to Plushenko. It's already a tradition in the skating world to favor the skaters from the country where the competition is held. Remember Lindemann's bronze at Worlds in Germany or Lepisto's title in Helsinki last year . And I agree: Plushenko got in Tallinn undeserved high PCS again, so I am unlikely to think that the American judges who respect him so much for his titles will give him less points. Regardless. I totally agree. And considering that they both have advantages - Lysachek has an advantage of being an American and Plushenko - of being known and respected there - I think that if they skate clean in the short they can receive even more points than Stephane with a clean short. It would be terribly unfair but let's face the odds. Stephane has no choice but to skate two clean programs with all planned elements. Only if he shows the same technical level as Plushenko he can hope that the judges will finally see the difference in presentation and give him higher PCS than Plush. That's my point. And the most important for Stephane is as I think to be clean in the short. He very rarely does it, and this can settle very much, if not everything in Vancouver. He must finish 1st or 2nd in SP to have a chance for the gold. Even if we are doomed to see as many men fall apart in the free as in Torino or Tallinn the judges will still drag the Americans as high as they can, so there won't be much of a chance to get higher in the free after a bad short. Yes, I am not in love with La Traviata. But I call it "not in love yet", because I am sure that Stephane will improve it until Vancouver, and as I already like this program, I am most likely to love the finished version of it because I love all Stephane's programs since 2005 (except some Art on Ice experiments, but I don't count them because there Stephane is mostly not free to choose the music) and many from the earlier time. But for now - not many emotions, sorry .
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Post by kevinbw on Jan 25, 2010 8:04:53 GMT 1
do you think stephane needs a 3A in his short to win? do we know if he is planning to add one in? I am not sure but I feel like if he can be 1st or 2nd after short he will be in a good place.
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Post by freefall on Jan 25, 2010 8:45:36 GMT 1
do you think stephane needs a 3A in his short to win? do we know if he is planning to add one in? I am not sure but I feel like if he can be 1st or 2nd after short he will be in a good place. We don't know, Stephane didn't say exactly if he is planning to do 3A in Vancouver. He only said his usual "maybe" , so he didn't promise. I personally think he needs it in the SP - not actually for the points which this jumps gives, but for the judges to see him as a contender for gold in the frame with Lysachek and Plush who will most likely execute 4T+3T and 3A in the SP. P.S. IMHO Lysachek is not a contender for the gold, he doesn't have the quality in his programs to deserve it, but like I said he will have a huge sympathy of the judges on his side because he is American, that's why I mention him so often here.
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Post by sha on Jan 25, 2010 15:45:06 GMT 1
hmmm... almost all of you are saing that if Steph want to get medal on Olimp he has to skate perfectly SP and LP... I think we know his way of skating already to suppose that it is rather impossible. He has problems with confidence and with beeing "technicly good" durring competition. We have seen in Traviata what happened when he relaxed for a few second and we have seen in SP what happened when he was too nervouse. Jumps from practice are not at all jumps which we see durring competition. I am not saing it becasue I don't hape a hope but I am just thinking realistic. I dream about medal for Steph (not nessesary gold but ofcourse I wouldn't mind ) but in the same time I am trying to see how it is.
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Post by elanor on Jan 25, 2010 16:21:38 GMT 1
Stephane never skated two clean programs in his entire career since he was 16. And now he's older and injured. What he achieved so far is remarkable, I admit I hardly believed he could get there. I wish he wouldn't put so much pressure on himself and relax a bit, he was so stressed out until the score came up. BTW, I wouldn't bet my life on any of Stephane's jumps. It's more than possible that he will do two quads and then will kiss the ice on his 3S. When it comes to jumps I would bet it on Plush. Usually the Olympics is a splatfest (especially when Plush is there : and almost all top skaters are headcases and inconsistent as hell and the Olympic pressure is enormous so he has a shot for a medal as well as the others. He's much better competitor than most of these guys anyway but he's not as strong as 4 years ago. I hope he gets to Vancouver healthy and skates good programs there. To see him in Olympic exhibition would be a dream. The LP is a thing of beauty that the whole world should see. Good luck and big thank you to the whole team who did miracles for Stephane. You rock.
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Post by Hoosierfan on Jan 25, 2010 16:22:12 GMT 1
I don't know that he has to have a 3A to win, but it would probably help him. Without it, he will most likely have to be perfect (or nearly so) on eveything else. I hate to sound like an authority, because I'm not! Also, we don't know how things will play out at the Olympics. Skate Canada 2006, Worlds 2007, and now Europeans 2010 show that we should never count Stéphane out of medal contention even after a bad SP. I would not want him to be in the position of having to climb out of deep hole and/or having to depend upon several others to make mistakes in the LP, however. ETA: by "clean" I mean mostly clean, LOL!
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Post by sha on Jan 25, 2010 16:43:18 GMT 1
Stephane never skated two clean programs in his entire career since he was 16. And now he's older and injured. BTW, I wouldn't bet my life on any of Stephane's jumps. exactly that's what I meant. and about jumps... my frend who is Swiss always durring watching Steph is nervouse not becasue general skating of him but becasue she's never sure when he will fall down (becasue as she is saying: "the fact that he will is preety sure" :
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Post by freefall on Jan 25, 2010 16:44:03 GMT 1
Stephane never skated two clean programs in his entire career since he was 16. Then if as he said himself he wants gold it's the very time to do it.
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Post by sha on Jan 25, 2010 16:57:08 GMT 1
and nobody doubt in this just I think it's needed to be realistic with hope
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