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Post by sunnygirl on May 5, 2012 17:41:23 GMT 1
It was also interesting for me to see things that I interpret as Stephane's influence on other skaters. I remember seeing Patrick Chan's interview somewhere that Stephane was a skater he hoped to emulate. And I saw a lot of Stephane in Chan's program to Rachmaninov Elegie in E Flat Minor. Nothing flashy, but gorgeous program. Chan may be just tapping into his artistic side. Even the 15-year-old Jinseo Kim, the current Korean men's national champion, did some signature Stephane spins. And Yuna herself, in her new program All of Me, dressed in dark suit and danced to a jazzy tune that reminded me of Stephane's Don't Stop the Music.
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Post by lauravvv on May 5, 2012 17:57:16 GMT 1
Thank you for your second report, sunnygirl . I really wanted to know your impressions after the second show . Stephane himself didn't look like he was quite comfortable doing the program today. He fell twice, the second time quite hard. Not that the falls make too much difference in his program, but Stephane looked disappointed at the end, that he couldn't show his best to the audience, even though they gave him cheerful applause. A pity - both for the falls, and especially that Stephane was disappointed . I know that he is such a perfectionist, and always want's to give his best to the people. The only good thing is that it didn't happen on the day when there is TV filming - hopefully everything will be allright tomorrow. Stephane in a rugged costume and with stubbles in a show? I am not sure that we will ever see that ;D. But never say never. So, Stephane skated 'My Body Is a Cage' in the first half, and 'Rigoletto' - in the second? I am asking because in the program it was the other way round. I am really glad that at least 'Rigoletto' was good this time and that the public received Stephane so well an was understanding . As for artistry - no, I think that those are many other things that make Stephane an artist (mostly his way of thinking, his attitude towards skating as an art, his feel for music, the work that he puts into his programs and into becoming better an better, and other personal traits), but his technique (as well as his gracefulness, beauty and talent of a dancer - he has worked on the first and third too, it's not like he was born that way) helps him express his artistry. But I am thinking more about his skating skills and, yes, spins - that's also technique. Jumps also look good when they are well done, but often I feel that even in Stephane's programs most of the jumps are there because they are supposed to be there - sometimes they serve as an accent for the music, but they don't express much apart from that. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I feel. Anyway, an exhibition program can be done without jumps. Look at Kurt Browning in his famous 'Nyah' program - there was not even one jump in it, it consisted only of footwork and other choreography, and it was a masterpiece. Or even Yuna with her last year's 'Fever' program - it didn't need jumps.
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Post by elanor on May 5, 2012 18:04:40 GMT 1
sunnygirl, thank you. Was the music Stephane skated to the same as Art on Ice? I'm very curious to see this program. It looks My body is a cage is getting its birth in pains, which doesn't surprise me. It's not the first program with hard beginnings . I know he will get there. And there were quite a few people who weren't impressed by Otono Porteno, Ne me quitte pas or Don't stop the music first, it is normal thing. It was also interesting for me to see things that I interpret as Stephane's influence on other skaters. I remember seeing Patrick Chan's interview somewhere that Stephane was a skater he hoped to emulate. And I saw a lot of Stephane in Chan's program to Rachmaninov Elegie in E Flat Minor. Nothing flashy, but gorgeous program. Chan may be just tapping into his artistic side. Even the 15-year-old Jinseo Kim, the current Korean men's national champion, did some signature Stephane spins. And Yuna herself, in her new program All of Me, dressed in dark suit and danced to a jazzy tune that reminded me of Stephane's Don't Stop the Music. Many skaters copy Stephane, some even literally sometimes ;D. And why not. But Patrick Chan way too much. Nothing against it, but he would be better trying to be himself more. Maybe he can't do it yet.
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Post by sunnygirl on May 5, 2012 18:10:58 GMT 1
I also wanted to ask - why was it that you didn't get Stephane's interpretation of the movements/music (besides that it's a bit like modern ballet)? Did you feel that the movements didn't express the music well enough, were not as powerful as the music, or something like that? I have to say that when I first saw 'My Body Is a Cage' I thought that the music was more powerful than the choreography/movements in that program. But later I got used to the somewhat ascetic choreography and Stephane's mostly calmer and more restrained movements (compared to the music). Yes, it's true that the choreography in this program is not very intricate and rich, it's quite sparse, because Stephane didn't have that much time when he and Salome were making it. But that makes me appreciate it even more how Stephane manages to express so much with only a few movements. Actually, I thought of all the things you mentioned in your post. First of all, I personally don't think the music of "My Body is a Cage" fits figure skating program. I do agree that the Rhonda Dorsey version is comparably better for skating music than Peter Gabriel version, but when I listen to the song, I think of "stationary" movements - that is, barefeet - instead of moving on skates. It's just the way I picture movements when I listen to that song. So when Stephane starts the program in relatively stationary position and when he falls on the ice or stops in the middle of the program with a pause, that is how I picture movements to that song. For some reason, the song doesn't sound "mobile" to me. I picture something like a ballet dancer in barefeet, in rugged, torn, plain costume, with move-stop-grimace-move-stop kind of movements. So when Stephane does regular skating elements like spins and spread eagle, they don't quite fit with this music for me. I also think, as you thought first, that the music is too powerful for the choreography. It is also true that the choreography is relatively sparse for Stephane. Maybe that is why I thought there seem to be too many "holes" to the choreography. I'm not saying Stephane is not expressive with just few movements. The program is very moving, but I feel like I'm not moved enough as I should be, that I'm missing something.
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Post by elanor on May 5, 2012 18:21:54 GMT 1
Stephane in a rugged costume and with stubbles in a show? I am not sure that we will ever see that ;D. But never say never. I hope not. It is too cheesy and easy. I wouldn't like to see him like "skater X" getting into convulsions on the ice in a rugged costume torm apart and messed up hair. He can go without resorting to such means and pull the drama out of the music itself and the program. I like his costume, it's a great design, perfect for the program and not overdone.
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Post by sunnygirl on May 5, 2012 18:35:51 GMT 1
So, Stephane skated 'My Body Is a Cage' in the first half, and 'Rigoletto' - in the second? I am asking because in the program it was the other way round. I am really glad that at least 'Rigoletto' was good this time and that the public received Stephane so well an was understanding . As for artistry - no, I think that those are many other things that make Stephane an artist (mostly his way of thinking, his attitude towards skating as an art, his feel for music, the work that he puts into his programs and into becoming better an better, and other personal traits), but his technique (as well as his gracefulness, beauty and talent of a dancer - he has worked on the first and third too, it's not like he was born that way) helps him express his artistry. But I am thinking more about his skating skills and, yes, spins - that's also technique. Jumps also look good when they are well done, but often I feel that even in Stephane's programs most of the jumps are there because they are supposed to be there - sometimes they serve as an accent for the music, but they don't express much apart from that. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I feel. Anyway, an exhibition program can be done without jumps. Look at Kurt Browning in his famous 'Nyah' program - there was not even one jump in it, it consisted only of footwork and other choreography, and it was a masterpiece. Or even Yuna with her last year's 'Fever' program - it didn't need jumps. Thank you lauravvv for your very interesting comments. Yes, he skated My Body is a Cage in the first part and Rigoletto in the second part. As for artistry, of course, I don't think his athleticism is the only element that makes him artistic. It takes a lot of effort and time to be artistic. I think we agree in essence that Art needs to have that basis of right techniques and hard training in order to be elevated to the level of Art. But I would rather disagree with your comment that Stephane wasn't born with the gracefulness and talent as a dancer, that he had to work on them. Definitely, he had to work on them, but I do think he was born with those talent and grace first that few people are blessed with. It's the realm of the gods that I don't know of, but I'm glad he has them. As for the techniques and jumps in themselves, I think they are a part of what makes figure skating figure skating. Sure, a figure skating program doesn't always necessarily have to have jumps, but I think they can serve as means of expression, much like facial expression or hand movements. They can be quite dramatic. And I like jumps in figure skating, they're something spectacular that no other artistic or athletic discipline can boast. Of course, all these elements have to go hand in hand, put in appropriate places, where they can serve their purpose. I liked Stephane's jumps in Rigoletto, for example, they were effective and spectacular indeed.
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Post by sunnygirl on May 5, 2012 18:44:01 GMT 1
sunnygirl, thank you. Was the music Stephane skated to the same as Art on Ice? I'm very curious to see this program. I believe so. Many skaters copy Stephane, some even literally sometimes ;D. And why not. But Patrick Chan way too much. Nothing against it, but he would be better trying to be himself more. Maybe he can't do it yet. I haven't seen too many of Patrick Chan's programs to judge, but the Elegie was very touching and nice. Reminded me of Stephane, but not to the level that I thought he "copied" him. I liked the program a lot.
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Post by sunnygirl on May 5, 2012 18:51:41 GMT 1
Stephane in a rugged costume and with stubbles in a show? I am not sure that we will ever see that ;D. But never say never. I hope not. It is too cheesy and easy. I wouldn't like to see him like "skater X" getting into convulsions on the ice in a rugged costume torm apart and messed up hair. He can go without resorting to such means and pull the drama out of the music itself and the program. I like his costume, it's a great design, perfect for the program and not overdone. I know it is cheesy. I can be quite cheesy sometimes. But I think Stephane is someone who can do cheesy and make it look like it's not cheesy. I believe that if he ever has to go with a rugged costume, he will pull that off great too. I actually LOVE the My Body is a Cage costume. Stephane in leather? Of course! I just thought it didn't quite fit the program nor the music. But it's just me.
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Post by elanor on May 5, 2012 18:53:24 GMT 1
I'm not saying Stephane is not expressive with just few movements. The program is very moving, but I feel like I'm not moved enough as I should be, that I'm missing something. But you shouldn't "be moved enough" or even moved at all. Either you are or not. And that's good too. I'm not that moved by all Stephane's programs. Just take it as it is. Also some programs have to grow and the reception depends on so many things like our changing moods and expectations. I didn't quite get into Don't Stop the music first, I needed to see it in different way for this to grow on me. Sometimes people listen to the music and then the program is different than what they experienced and expected and there can be a discord. It can dissapear after some time or not. I try to be open but without trying extremely hard .
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Post by elanor on May 5, 2012 19:36:21 GMT 1
sunnygirl, thank you. Was the music Stephane skated to the same as Art on Ice? I'm very curious to see this program. I believe so. I think it's the right choice. Peter Gabriel is one of a kind musical poet but this would be very difficult to skate and might be rather too much for a show, great they managed to get the adapted version.
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Post by elanor on May 5, 2012 19:44:15 GMT 1
sunnygirl, thank you. Was the music Stephane skated to the same as Art on Ice? I'm very curious to see this program. I haven't seen too many of Patrick Chan's programs to judge, but the Elegie was very touching and nice. Reminded me of Stephane, but not to the level that I thought he "copied" him. I liked the program a lot. Of course he doesn't copy literally, he is too inteligent for this and the program is fine. Skaters take from the others all the time, but skating to similar music pieces, in similar costume with similar expressions and some incorporated moves is a little bit far streched for me when somoeone does it often. He is a very good skater and could get different, more original ideas for his own personality.
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Post by elanor on May 5, 2012 19:52:41 GMT 1
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Post by pianomaya on May 5, 2012 20:28:14 GMT 1
Thank you girls for your interesting discussions. Thank you sunnygirl for your impression and many thanks to pia, reut and again sunnygirl for links to pictures etc.! Now I pray for all skaters and audience a very nice show tomorrow and especially for Stéphane successful performances!
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Post by lauravvv on May 5, 2012 20:34:29 GMT 1
Actually, I thought of all the things you mentioned in your post. First of all, I personally don't think the music of "My Body is a Cage" fits figure skating program. I do agree that the Rhonda Dorsey version is comparably better for skating music than Peter Gabriel version, but when I listen to the song, I think of "stationary" movements - that is, barefeet - instead of moving on skates. It's just the way I picture movements when I listen to that song. So when Stephane starts the program in relatively stationary position and when he falls on the ice or stops in the middle of the program with a pause, that is how I picture movements to that song. For some reason, the song doesn't sound "mobile" to me. I picture something like a ballet dancer in barefeet, in rugged, torn, plain costume, with move-stop-grimace-move-stop kind of movements. So when Stephane does regular skating elements like spins and spread eagle, they don't quite fit with this music for me. I also think, as you thought first, that the music is too powerful for the choreography. It is also true that the choreography is relatively sparse for Stephane. Maybe that is why I thought there seem to be too many "holes" to the choreography. I'm not saying Stephane is not expressive with just few movements. The program is very moving, but I feel like I'm not moved enough as I should be, that I'm missing something. Thank you for the explanation, sunnygirl. I have to say that I agree about spins, although I don't "see" this music quite in the way that you do. As for artistry, of course, I don't think his athleticism is the only element that makes him artistic. It takes a lot of effort and time to be artistic. I think we agree in essence that Art needs to have that basis of right techniques and hard training in order to be elevated to the level of Art. But I would rather disagree with your comment that Stephane wasn't born with the gracefulness and talent as a dancer, that he had to work on them. Definitely, he had to work on them, but I do think he was born with those talent and grace first that few people are blessed with. It's the realm of the gods that I don't know of, but I'm glad he has them. As for the techniques and jumps in themselves, I think they are a part of what makes figure skating figure skating. Sure, a figure skating program doesn't always necessarily have to have jumps, but I think they can serve as means of expression, much like facial expression or hand movements. They can be quite dramatic. And I like jumps in figure skating, they're something spectacular that no other artistic or athletic discipline can boast. Of course, all these elements have to go hand in hand, put in appropriate places, where they can serve their purpose. I liked Stephane's jumps in Rigoletto, for example, they were effective and spectacular indeed. Once again, thank you for explaining your thoughts. I absolutely agree about art and technique. But I didn't mean that Stephane wasn't graceful and a good dancer at all in the beginning, just that he wasn't quite as graceful as he is now. I rewatched some of his old programs from 2001 and 2002 some time ago, and realized just how much he has improved. And it didn't come just like that, he obviously worked hard on it.
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Post by reut on May 5, 2012 20:50:20 GMT 1
Thank you, sunnygirl, for your impressions from the shows and your thoughts about the programs. And thank you everybody who joined the discussion. I think, I understand your feelings about "My Body is a Cage", sunnygirl, because I think I have similar feelings to this program. In fact I still can't really formulate them. And I'm really glad that Stephane keeps this program, this gives me a chance to see more performances (maybe I'll be even lucky enough to see one live, who knows?) and to form my opinion. I see that this program has a great potential of being one of his masterpieces, I feel he is still not there though (or maybe I'm still not there?). I love the choreography, the new moves, the new "styles" of his spins. I love that he again took another direction, chose different music, wanted to tell a different story. Although he gave two explanations to this program, I have a feeling he himself is still not sure about the story. Out of his two explanations I actually loved the one he gave first (in the interview with Miki). In the second one he puts his usual thoughts about how skating brings him freedom, something he mentions quite often, something I can see in his other programs but not in this one. I don't see this freedom here, I don't see this skating=flying thing he usually mentions. First explanation for me "sits" better with the costume too, which I really love by the way. It is sophisticated enough, "rough" enough but still elegant and has his touch. I can't see him on the ice half naked, so this is exactly the way I would imagine him showing the idea without literally doing it. I like that he "gave us permission" to go with this program where we want and to give our own meaning to it. When I first heard that he was going to skate to that song, of course I listened to it (didn't know it before) and of course I read the words, because I know that words always have a meaning for him. And I was rather depressed after that, to tell the truth. The meaning which comes straight from the words is very-very sad, I didn't want him to put such meaning in his program. And to feel such things in his life ever. So anyway, I prefer any of his two meaning to the horrible one I had in my head before I read his ones. There is already some video of this program from Korea: www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mROOV7LLcThe quality is not the best and you can't see some parts of the program, so probably I can't really judge this version. But I think the way the technical possibilities of "Art on Ice" allowed him to "decorate" this program added something to the program and now it lacks it. Especially I love the "cage from lights", but actually everything, the moving stage (the fall in Korea looked less "natural"), the cubes with shadows. I do hope he'll continue to experiment with this program more. It definitely worth to stay in his repertoire and to be shown in more shows.
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